Discussing Religion

If you travel the internet circles I do, (take a look at the Blogs I Follow) you will often see conversations pointing out flaws in religious thinking, and they are many. These flawed arguments appear to be never ending. Mind numbingly rampant even. You will see the philosophical arguments, the always amusing argument from many fallacies, or my favorite, the argument from bible verse. Which is itself a fallacy. Assuming your little black book is the end all authority on a subject is quite the leap, especially when it is obvious to anyone with two neurons to rub together, that book was written by men, for the sole purpose of creating a means to subvert and control those for whom an irrational fear of death, overrides common sense. Never mind all of the internal inconsistencies, and ancient claims of fact in there, already debunked by modern science.

One of the things I often see in many of these conversations is, the religious arguing about some sort of knowledge, or some kind of obvious-ness we should all be aware of, but none of these things are self evident or existing in any form I can detect. Things like “waterfalls are beautiful, therefore god”, and other equally ludicrous assumptions. Then you have the many factual claims of existence, by theists, which to me are a non starter until they can provide some damn EVIDENCE for anything they blather about… gods, devils, magic, zombies, hell, fluds, people living in whales, souls, you name it. It is all fiction. The only proof they have for the existence of any of it, is “cuz we said so” That childishly brilliant argument doesn’t seem to be as silly to them, as it is to me.

As far as I’m concerned, the minute you allow for the discussion of any of these things without supporting evidence, you are playing their game on their turf. Once you go down the road of infinite possibilities, the word games, and the philosophical arguments begin, and these are sometimes difficult to distinguish, as most philosophical arguments are word games. These tactics that they use allow for all the weasel room in the world, for them to demonstrate the “xian crawfish” (otherwise known as moving the goal posts). Amongst all of the turmoil on the battlefields of logic, always remember this: They need to define their claims, before they can make any. Before we can argue all things godly, we need a definition for a god. We need to know where it is, where it came from, how its magic works, where it sleeps, who its daddy was, if its magic is finite,  if this magic power is detectable in any way, or if this magic has unintended side effects such as causing a god to go missing for 2000 years. We need to know what they have besides unfounded claims of knowledge with the only explanations being nothing but hot air, misdirection, and the never ending ride on the merry go round. Circular logic…is circular. We have all seen it. The only other dull knife in their toolkit is the one where they pretend to be scientific, and harp away on the sidelines about how their theory of ID has some sort of merit (it doesn’t) and argue that the ToE can’t possibly be correct because (insert flawed argument here) Nevermind that these so called scientists that work in these so called think tanks have never actually produced any actual science. Get back to the initial point here which is, they got nuttin.

Still I get the desire to engage them about the reasons why their assumptions have no merit, and I think it is a good cause. So while my thoughts here are my true feelings, I know these things, our arguments of reason need to be said. I know their bad arguments need refuting, if nothing else so some innocent bystander, who is unanware of the tactics creationists use, has a reasonable, logical, well thought out, fact laden reply to the well crafted deception that is Professional Creationist Speak. To expand further on this topic, these same people, who have never had any evidence, have built huge institutions of deception based on this big fat zero. AIG,  (Answers in Genesis) the DI (Discovery Institute) the ICR (Institution for Creation Research). These are the pinnacle of nothingness. These are the spin doctors plying their trade. The snake oil salesmen of yesteryear never died, they became professional creationists.

Even knowing these things and feeling as I do, I will still catch myself arguing on the fundies turf sometimes, darn well knowing better. It is a damnable spot to be in. I would in no way try to discourage any one that would engage them, I really understand the desire to fire back against all of the absolute insidious claims they make. They got nothing but bluff and bluster and one bad argument after another, but yet they believe they hold the high ground. It’s a joke really. It is Bahgdad Bob. It is Bozo the clown. It is a dazzling Vegas display of fluffery. It is a great play in which all of the actors play their roles, to keep the rubes in the pews, and the cash flowing from their pockets.

It has become a minefield of misinformation, and lies out there. The trademaked ‘truth’ the professional creationists reveal is nothing but a shell game, rigged to deceive the uninformed. There are the professional liars in charge, and the dutiful minions that hinge on every word of their authoritarian keepers. These minions are too dimwitted to do any fact checking on their own, but they are everywhere, regurgitating the nonsense their keepers have instilled in them, and they ‘just know’ they are right, without ever investigating their own belief. They are legion. They are out there trolling the net. They take up living under bridges on free thought sites. Waiting for a chance to march in, waving the flag of ignorance proudly, and leaving droppings that are easily refutable with grade school logic and easily obtainable facts. The task lies before us. It is a shame it amounts to janitorial work.

Just remember, they got nuttin. Do not give them any wiggle room. Demand definitions. Ask the tough questions. Show them the facts. Demand the evidence for their claims. They are entitled to belief, and opinion, but we all answer to the same facts. Make them cry.

Guess that makes me a militant, and this my manifesto.

My thanks to to all of the bloggers, or website enthusiasts out there (that for whatever reason don’t want to be thought of as bloggers), that have helped to shape my thoughts on these matters. It is the comraderie out there, and the free exchange of ideas that help us all form our views, and share them with the world.

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4 thoughts on “Discussing Religion

  1. Where you are you during all my debates with creationists?! :p

    • I am on call 😉 This post was a result of thinking about a lot of the replies I leave on other blogs. I thought I’d condense (if 1150 words is condensed) my notions into a single post. There was a lot more I felt like getting into, but sheesh, it’s a small book already.

  2. I agree with the resolution that they first define their terms before we can start debate. They shouldn’t be offered any room to wiggle about with 1001 indemonstrable assumptions

    • That is their playground. That is where they live and breathe. That is where they want to set up shop. 1001 indemonstrable assumptions is the entire basis for their beliefs… and they don’t need no stinking facts. That is what we are up against.

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